‘Anyone engaging in violent and thuggish behaviour will feel full force of the law’, says Cabinet Office Minister

Krishnan Guru-Murthy spoke to Cabinet Office minister, Nick Thomas-Symonds, about how the government plans to end the unrest on the streets.

Nick Thomas-Symonds: Anyone who engages in this violent and thuggish behaviour will feel the full force of the law, and I think we’ve seen that today. Sentences of 20 months, of two and a half years, and three years, handed down to three men who engaged in this violent, thuggish behaviour only eight days ago. That is the consequence of engaging in this violent and thuggish behaviour. Secondly, we are clear with communities we will be doing all we can to protect them.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But is the cause racism or is it immigration? Because there are a lot of people on the right out there saying, underneath all of this is dissatisfaction with levels of immigration. And on the other hand, there are lots of people saying the problem is there’s a lot of racist out there.

Nick Thomas-Symonds: I was going up and down the country, not just in the weeks before the general election, but in the months before as well. I spoke to many people with concerns about a variety of issues, including immigration – decent, law abiding people who wouldn’t dream of taking part in this violent and thuggish behaviour. And what you have here, you have these thugs engaging in this appalling behaviour and of course they are communicating. Groups are communicating on social media as well.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Your colleague, the deputy prime minister, has accused the man who wants to lead the Conservative Party, Robert Jenrick, of stirring up a lot of the problems that we’re seeing in communities. Could you just explain what the government means by this? What are you accusing him of?

Nick Thomas-Symonds: Evidently politicians of all political parties, of course, are responsible for their language and being responsible about the use of language. But what the government’s focus is this evening – let there be no doubt about it – is firstly, to send out a very clear message that anyone who engages in this appalling, thuggish, violent behaviour will feel the full force of the law.

Krishnan Guru Murthy: But can we address these questions? That’s the third time you’ve told me that.

Nick Thomas-Symonds: Krishnan, just one final point. I just wanted to add to that because where there are particular concerns, for example, around mosques, the government has a particular programme, a fund available. And if there are particular concerns, the government will make additional security available. I appreciate just giving me the chance to say that because I think it’s important.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The trouble is, what happens when this is over, isn’t it? What happens when you quell this round of rioting? How do you ensure this doesn’t happen again? And that’s why people are saying you’ve got to start addressing what are the underlying causes, whatever they may be.

Nick Thomas-Symonds: It’s a mistake to conflate genuine concerns people have, whether it’s on the level of immigration, whether it’s on socio-economic issues, whether it’s on our public services, with people who are going out for no other reason other than to commit mindless violence. And for them, what is crucial is that we set out the strongest of responses, and that’s what we’re doing.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So how can you reach Andrew Tate or Tommy Robinson or, frankly, Elon Musk now, all of whom are amplifying misinformation?

Nick Thomas-Symonds: Look, there is of course a need to keep the online safety laws that we have under review. And there are, as you quite rightly point out, Krishnan, those various aspects and challenges around that. But whatever the position of the platform, people who put content on the platform are themselves responsible for their actions. So somebody who puts something that is itself committing a criminal offence on the platform will be pursued by our police. The armchair thugs, if you like, will be pursued just as much as the thugs on our streets.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Even if there isn’t more violence tonight, the job of that sort of threat has already had a chilling effect on society. You know, people have stayed at home, businesses have closed up early. There is a terrorising effect of these threats.

Nick Thomas-Symonds: Let’s just just take this step by step. First of all, of course, businesses have been hugely affected by this and the lives of people who’ve been victims of this disorder – it’s been quite appalling. In terms of the second point you’re making, if people are making threats, whether they are making threats on our streets, whether they’re making threats individually to people they meet, or indeed whether they are making threats of violence online, all those things are things that break our criminal law. And all those things are things that the action people are taking will mean they feel the full force of the law, whether it is threats of violence, or actual violence, people will feel the full force of the law. And it should make people think twice about acting in this way.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: We all hear you and ministers have been echoing this a lot, but Tommy Robinson is sitting there on a sun lounger laughing at you, isn’t he? And just doing more of this.

Nick Thomas-Symonds: You wouldn’t, I’m sure, expect me to comment on individual cases. And obviously I wouldn’t do that. But the reality is that whoever you are, if you have committed criminal offences online or offline, you will feel the full force of the law. That is absolutely the government’s position. We’ve seen evidence of how quickly the government has been acting and pushing this matter – with sentences handed down today after just eight days after the offences.