Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: So I was given some information by one of the complainants in this case back in January 2024, when she made some of the details known to me. And I met with her and took that really seriously. I was aware from slightly earlier than that, when I began in the role as lead bishop, that there had been some concerns expressed. But my colleagues in the National Safeguarding Team had already dealt with that before I came into post.
Cathy Newman: Right. So those concerns related to the previous year, did they, 2023?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: Yes.
Cathy Newman: So as a lead bishop for safeguarding, based on what you’ve been told, the allegations about Bishop John’s behaviour, do you think he should be stepped back from ministry pending further investigation?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: I think these are serious allegations. They need a proper process to look at them, to be fair to everybody involved. But I do think that while that happens, he should step back from ministry to give the church the space to do that properly.
Cathy Newman: Right. So you don’t think those allegations have been properly investigated to date?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: What I learned earlier this week is that the Archbishop of York has asked for a kind of rapid review to look at the decisions that were made, how they were done, and to see whether anything could or should have been done differently and to identify any next steps. I really welcome that. I think that needs to be done at this stage, particularly in relation to the second complaint that’s been made. In relation to the first one, I do understand that my colleagues in the National Safeguarding Team looked at it really carefully from a safeguarding risk point of view. But what I think I perceive is that we have to be better at joining these things up – where there are questions of alleged misconduct – that we have to kind of see the whole picture and look perhaps beyond formal safeguarding on to how we deal with that. I think there’s still more work to do.
Cathy Newman: Because both women were told that they… what they were alleging… couldn’t be categorised as a safeguarding problem because they weren’t themselves vulnerable. That’s too narrowly defined, isn’t it?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: I think it’s really important that the Church of England, when it talks about safeguarding, understands vulnerability to include power, an imbalance of power. We have to be so careful because of the responsibility that we hold to be careful and appropriate and gentle with the power that we hold. And therefore, I think that the definition of safeguarding needs to be broad enough to make sure that we look at those bigger questions of conduct. Now, I’m really certain that my colleagues looked at that properly in terms of safeguarding, but the wider issues of conduct actually really matter. And we have to look at power as part of that.
Cathy Newman: Right. And you’re clear that while these further investigations are carried out, Bishop John should step back from ministry, as the phrase goes. He hasn’t yet, so why not? What’s going on there?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: I think it’s a normal process in the church for somebody to step back. Well, things are looked at. It’s what we would do for clergy. And I think it’s what should happen for a bishop. And I’ve made it clear that’s what I think should happen now…
Cathy Newman: So why hasn’t it?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: … for that investigation to be concluded? I don’t know the answer to that. That’s not a decision that I make.
Cathy Newman: I’m told that there’s legal advice that you can’t formally suspend a bishop unless he’s arrested or convicted of something or there’s a serious risk from his behaviour. Should that also be looked at?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: So we have proper statutory processes for how we deal with managing allegations and the threshold that has to be reached for somebody legally to be suspended. I’m not certain that’s what we’re talking about here. I think we’re talking about asking someone voluntarily to step back because they know that the investigation has to be done properly – and that there has to be space – and that people have to perceive that we’re taking it seriously and that they’re out of the equation while that happens.
Cathy Newman: Just finally, can the church be trusted to mark its own homework in this, or should safeguarding just be outsourced to an independent external body?
Rev. Dr Joanne Grenfell: I know from where we are at the moment that the Church of England has a huge task ahead of it in order to restore trust and confidence. The work I’ve been leading in terms of independent safeguarding is about setting up a proper body for scrutiny and audit and complaints and the possibility of full independence around operational safeguarding. That’s what’s coming to General Synod in February, and I’m really glad that we’re taking that so that the whole Synod can take ownership of that.