Can the UK have a relationship with China while addressing human rights?

The Foreign Secretary David Lammy has pressed his Chinese counterpart on concerns about human rights and Russia’s war in Ukraine in his first visit there since taking office.

Mr Lammy met his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi yesterday in what were described as “constructive” talks.

The Foreign Office said he had also urged China to release the dual-national media tycoon and pro-democracy activist Jimmy Lai, who’s now been detained in solitary confinement for nearly four years.

We were joined by Jimmy Lai’s son Sebastien. He’s been calling for urgent intervention from Britain to demand his father’s release.

Cathy Newman: The last government saw China as a threat. This government seems to be, for economic reasons, to be approaching China in a different way. Do you understand that approach, no matter how hard it is for you personally?

Sebastien Lai: It’s not hard for me personally. I definitely think that engagement with China is important. The misnomer of being tough on China, that’s not right. You’re just strong on human rights. And we, I think as the British people, want a government that is strong in human rights, that protects our values at home and abroad.

Cathy Newman: But is it possible to do both those things, to have this relationship with China and yet be tough on human rights? Because past governments have tried to address human rights concerns in private, thinking that that’s going to be diplomatically better.

Sebastien Lai: So it depends on whether we see it as a partnership or whether we are subservient. Now, if we treat it as a partnership, then they have to respect the right that underpins our democracy. It’s as simple as that. I’ll give you an example of Australia, where Australia managed to release one of their journalists, Cheng Lei, who was held in China as part of saying, ‘Look, if you want us to normalise trade again, normalise relationships. You can’t do that if you have one of our citizens singing in a jail for journalism.’

Cathy Newman: So in other words, that journalist had to be released before they normalised relations?

Sebastien Lai: Exactly. Because it shows that our people aren’t open targets for the beliefs that we hold in this country.

Cathy Newman: So should David Lammy have made this trip and made the overtures he did before the release of your father?

Sebastien Lai: Long story short, yes. It’s incredibly important…

Cathy Newman: It’s realpolitik?

Sebatient Lai: Yeah. But the politics aside, my father has been in social confinement for the last four years. He’s turning 77 soon, and this is about saving him. This is about saving his life. This is a man who has, for the last 30 years, campaigned for democracy in Hong Kong, campaigned for free press, free speech, anti-corruption. And when the national security law came down as a result of the 2019 protests, everybody told him to leave. He was interviewed. And he could have had a perfectly good life in London playing with his grandchildren and Hyde Park and whatnot. By the way, my father is a full British citizen. He’s not even a dual national. But he knew that as a publisher of the Apple Daily, the biggest newspaper in Hong Kong, but also the pro-democracy newspaper in Hong Kong, he had a responsibility to protect his journalists. And he made the incredibly tough decision to essentially stand between the Hong Kong government and his journalists and other activists, hoping that he would be enough. That after going through him, they would not have to persecute his journalists.

Cathy Newman: So are you reassured that the foreign secretary did raise his plight in this meeting? We don’t know the details, but are you reassured that his name at least came up?

Sebastien Lai: I’m grateful that the foreign secretary mentioned his name, that also Keir Starmer mentioned that he should be released immediately. But I have no visibility on how it was said. Truth be told, more needs to be done on my father’s case.

Cathy Newman: What more? Shout louder?

Sebastien Lai: Yeah, definitely. Make it very clear to his Chinese counterpart, to China and to Hong Kong that nobody has the right to hold any of our citizens for standing up for democracy, for human rights, peacefully, anywhere in the world.

Cathy Newman: And do you intend to push the foreign secretary, the foreign office, in a direct meeting to make this point to them?

Sebastien Lai: Yeah. I have an outstanding request to meet with David Lammy. I also have an outstanding request to meet with Prime Minister Keir Starmer.

Cathy Newman: But the fact that they haven’t agreed to meet you, what does that say to you about the priority this is given within government?

Sebastien Lai: Obviously it shows that it’s not… It unfortunately shows that this isn’t a priority. But even the prime minister said that this was a priority. So it’s time to put word to action and to show, obviously me and my family, that it’s priority. But more importantly, to show his captors that this is someone that is one of our guys, he’s a British citizen.

Cathy Newman: You haven’t seen him for four years, have you? What information do you have about his plight?

Sebastien Lai: So he is being held in a maximum security prison for standing up for democracy in Hong Kong and for his courage. He is in solitary confinement. Fifteen days of solitary confinement is seen internationally as degrading and inhumane. He has spent almost four years, so 1,400 days and more and counting. He is turning 77 soon. He’s got diabetes and his health is gotten much worse. And look, when you’re in solitary confinement, it is just between you and God. There’s nobody else there. And his faith is massively important. And from my understanding, he hasn’t received communion, he hasn’t been able to receive communion in a few months.