Debate over bishops in Lords is ‘no surprise’ says Baroness Morgan

We spoke to the former Culture and Education Secretary, Baroness Nicky Morgan – who’s now in the House of Lords.

We began by asking if she was surprised that no other senior member of the church, apart from the Archbishop of Canterbury, had stepped down following the damning Makin Report.

Baroness Morgan: I suspect that we may see more people reflecting on their position before too long.

Cathy Newman: So you don’t think it’s enough for one person to quit, the person at the head?

Baroness Morgan: Well, I think if people are specifically named in a report and criticised, then I think it becomes quite difficult for them to continue in their position. But sometimes it takes longer for people to reach that conclusion.

Cathy Newman: There are calls from your parliamentary colleagues, indeed from a member of the General Synod, for the bishops who have been criticised for failing in abuse cases, to be removed from the Lords, with some, Harriet Harman for example, saying go even further and remove the right of the bishops entirely to sit in the Lords. Where do you stand on that?

Baroness Morgan: The reality is that when something like this safeguarding scandal hits an institution like the Church of England, then it will be no surprise that people want to debate whether, in fact, the time has come to remove the bishops from the House of Lords. I think this is a debate whose time is going to come anyway. It’s been hastened by this scandal. And I think many people, both inside and outside the Lords, will be asking about whether they should continue as members.

Cathy Newman: Do you see their position in the Lords as a bit of an anachronism?

Baroness Morgan: Well, I think it is hard. Look, we live in a very multi-faith society. I’m a member of the Church of England, but I think we are in 2024 and I think many people would say, ‘well, you know, there are lots of people who would make great members of the House of Lords’. Is it the right of the bishops, particularly today, when people are thinking about the culture of the Church of England, given the safeguarding scandal.

Cathy Newman: That raises quite serious constitutional issues. Bishops have sat in the Lords since feudal times. Is that problematic, do you think, or do you think this is moving with the times?

Baroness Morgan: I think there will be individuals, who because of the nature of their experience and what they would bring to the House of Lords, who would be right to be appointed in their own right. And it may be that a future Archbishop of Canterbury should also be there in the same way that senior members of other faiths are. But I think that Harriet Harman, if she’s put that amendment down to the Hereditary Peers Bill, that’s a debate whose time very firmly has come.

Cathy Newman: We’ve broadcast allegations tonight about the Archbishop of York. Do you think he should consider his position?

Baroness Morgan: I’m horrified to hear the story from the abuse survivor. I think anybody who has behaved in a way and not taken seriously or perhaps betrayed the trust of a survivor of abuse should reflect on their position. But I do want to look to the future and think about who will be the next very good Archbishop of Canterbury. And we’ve got some great female candidates.