Grenfell Inquiry: Two grieving sisters call for prosecutions – Full Interview

Anne-Marie Murphy and Bernie Bernard both lost brothers in the fire.

Anne-Marie’s brother Denis lived on the 14th floor, while Raymond Bernard, who was known as ‘Moses’ lived on the top floor, and was hailed a hero for sheltering six others who had headed up, trying to escape the flames. They spoke to Jackie Long about their reaction to the report.

Bernie Bernard: Moses was a really loving, gentle man.

Anne-Marie Murphy: I talk to Denis every day. I tell him how proud I am to be his sister and how lucky I was to have been loved by him.

Bernie Bernard: Because when I think about my brother, I have to think about him in that inferno.

Anne-Marie Murphy: I have to hope, and I live in hope, that there will be change. Because if I lose that hope, what then? It has to be our loved ones’ legacy – that there will be change, that people are punished.

Jackie Long: What did you make of the report today when you read it through?

Bernie Bernard: So the report, for me, answers quite a lot of the questions that not only I have, but I’m sure quite a lot of the bereaved and the survivors had as well. For me, the fact that Sir Martin Moore-Bick named the corporations and various individuals that are responsible for the shoddy workmanship, that they were proud of – even though they knew if the devastation that would occur, should a fire occur. So for me, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, what he did was he put into the arena that these people, these decision makers, these corporations, need to be held accountable.

Jackie Long: So important for you?

Bernie Bernard: Very important.

Jackie Long: And what about you?

Anne-Marie Murphy: For me, the significance of today’s report means that we have finally seen in black and white the failures. It’s recorded the truth, the failures, the lack of actions, wrong decision-making, the lack of regard for human life – which is why 72 people died.

Bernie Bernard: And he also mentions the greed which I have always, with every interview I’ve ever done or anything I’ve ever said on Grenfell, that is all these corporations had in mind – when they took on that project.

Anne-Marie Murphy: I agree. It shouldn’t, it should never, ever have been about financial gain. You can’t put a price on human lives. It should never have been about the costs or financial gain.

Jackie Long: Or the cost cutting.

Anne-Marie Murphy: Yes.

Jackie Long: So the report has come. It has been a long, hard road for all of the families, the bereaved, the survivors. What needs to happen now?

Bernie Bernard: For me, what needs to happen is, like I said, these corporations need to be held to account. They were dishonest, which is said in the report. They focused purely on profit and they need to feel the pain that they have caused to all of us bereaved and survivors. They will never understand the trauma that now is in our lives for the rest of our lives – and they need to somehow feel that pain.

Anne-Marie Murphy: For us, we’ve been given a life sentence of pain, sorrow and trauma, because of losing our loved ones in such a horrific way. For those responsible, they need to be held accountable in a criminal court and face severe sentences, and the sentences need to reflect the magnitude of their actions or inactions.

Jackie Long: You want accountability – the companies. What about the council? The tenant management organisation?

Bernie Bernard: The tenant management organisation failed the tenants of Grenfell Tower. They basically saw them in a way that they dehumanised the tenants – to the degree that the tenants were not listened to. They were very aggressive towards the tenants who, by the way, were paying rent. And just had a total lack of disrespect for those tenants, which is why they went ahead with this project – knowing that they shouldn’t have ever touched Grenfell Tower. And if they were going to proceed with the project, there should not have been the cost cutting and the cheap cladding that they put up on that building.

Anne-Marie Murphy: They were basically treated like second class citizens, that they should have been grateful that they were given social housing, and they were treated like that from start to finish. All of those that lived in Grenfell Tower.

Jackie Long: This idea that they didn’t deserve any more than what they got.

Anne-Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Bernie Bernard: Yeah.

Anne-Marie Murphy: And that’s how they were spoken to. I know personally my brother had lots of problems with the TMO. Yeah. And he quite often spoke to us about it.

Jackie Long: And just in terms of the culture, it’s repeated in the report that the people who were going to live in the refurbished tower almost didn’t matter. That needs to change doesn’t it?

Bernie Bernard: It does. And that’s why the recommendations that have been put forward by Sir Martin Moore-Bick need to be implemented. The new Labour government now needs to look at that report and put in these regulations, and recommendations, in order that another Grenfell never happens again.

Jackie Long: How optimistic are you that you will get justice?

Anne-Marie Murphy: It’s great the recommendations, but if they’re not acted upon, they mean nothing. From phase one and the recommendations, I think the only organisation so far that has taken on board all the recommendations they were given were the London Fire Brigade, and it shows. Because for all the fires that have happened since Grenfell, nobody’s lost their lives because they’ve implemented all of the recommendations.

Jackie Long: So change can happen and lives can be saved. But it means everyone accepting the recommendations. It means everyone changing how they do things.

Bernie Bernard: Exactly that – and that’s the responsibility of the now Labour government to make sure that that happens.

Jackie Long: Are you confident, either of you, both of you, that there will be change, that there will be justice?

Anne-Marie Murphy: For me, I have to hope, and I live in hope that there will be change. Because if I lose that hope, what then? So it has to be our loved ones’ legacy that there will be change, that people are punished.

Bernie Bernard: I totally agree with what Anne just said. The recommendations mean nothing unless they’re implemented.

Jackie Long: And that legacy is important, isn’t it?

Bernie Bernard: It is. Yes. Our loved ones, both my brother and Anne’s brother, died in a horrific way. My Moses was cremated in that building. So for me, justice is, not just to remember that horrific morning, but also for the legacy that should be left – and introduced by the now Labour government, with the recommendations to stop these corrupt corporations from dealing with social housing, or any form of housing, in the way in which they do.

Jackie Long: You talk about legacy for both of your brothers, and today must be phenomenally difficult. Every day must be difficult. But what are your thoughts about them today?

Bernie Bernard: Moses was a really loving, gentle man – and he would protect anybody that he saw as family. Moses himself didn’t have very much. That is in the way of assets. But whatever he had, he would share with anybody that he came into contact with. Everybody in that tower knew him for that reason because he was a giver and a protector. And what’s happened, with this tragedy, is that it blocks some of the good memories I have of Moses because of the trauma behind it all. Because when I think about my brother, I have to think about him in that inferno. And like I said before, all because of the corruption within the construction industry.

Jackie Long: And what do you want to say about your brother, Denis?

Anne-Marie Murphy: Well, my most standout memory of Denis was how much he loved – loved us and cared for us. Again, he didn’t have a lot, he didn’t have financial wealth, but he was so rich in a human nature that was selfless, caring, loving. And you can’t buy that. I remember him by… I talk to Denis every day. I tell him how proud I am to be his sister. I tell him how proud I am to be his sister and how lucky I was to have been loved by him.

Bernie Bernard: I hope once the government has had an opportunity to read and digest the report, they implement all the recommendations.

Anne-Marie Murphy: The road’s still long for us. The next stage is the criminal prosecutions. And they’re obviously so important to us now.