Leader Interviews – John Swinney of the Scottish National Party | Election 2024

As part of our series of election interviews with the party leaders, Krishnan Guru-Murthy spoke to John Swinney.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Who do you want to be prime minister?

John Swinney: I think the Conservatives have squandered any possibility of being the government of the United Kingdom by their record in their behaviour, so I think it’s inevitable that Keir Starmer will be the prime minister.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It’s time for a change, isn’t it? That’s the prevailing mood across the United Kingdom?

John Swinney: I think it depends. Certainly change of the United Kingdom government, yes. But what does change mean in terms of what the Labour Party is offering? Because as far as what I can see, the Labour Party is offering the same position as the Conservatives on Brexit, the same position on austerity, the same position on issues such as the two child limit which commits or it sends children into poverty as a concept.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But you want him to be prime minister because you think he has changed?

John Swinney: I think what I recognise is that we need to get rid of the Conservatives. The Conservatives are doing untold damage to the United Kingdom, and the debate in this election has got to be about what follows and we just shouldn’t automatically accept that whatever the Labour Party and Keir Starmer says should be the sum of our ambitions, because it’s certainly not the sum of my ambitions, because it will carry on the austerity agenda of the Conservatives and it will commit this country to further damage from Brexit. And I think that’s a disaster.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The trouble is you are being squeezed by that ‘time for a change’ movement aren’t you, because in Scotland the fear is that will mean get rid of the SNP as well.

John Swinney: We’ve got a different proposition to put to people and that’s what’s dynamic about the election campaign in Scotland, that people can look at the SNP and see, well, this is a party that’s offering us something very different. So it’s offering us, for example, it’s offering us the prospect of independence, which would give us control over the issues that matter to our public, about the public finances, about a relationship with Europe, about international issues, the way in which we manage our economy. They can look at us and see us as a party prepared to commit to invest in the National Health Service and to safeguard the future of the National Health Service and to protect it from privatisation. And they can look at us as a party that is taking to.. Doing the hard stuff to reduce child poverty within our country and at a time when the actions of the UK government are fuelling child poverty. So they can see an alternative and that possibility is available to people in Scotland.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You say a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. The truth is it’s a vote for a referendum, isn’t it?

John Swinney: It’s a vote to make sure that Scotland has a choice about our future. Yes.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Which means that, that’s the choice – vote SNP get another referendum. Why aren’t you being clear about that because your page one says independence, which sort of hints at a different route? The route is definitely a referendum isn’t it.

John Swinney: I think it’s beyond dispute that the best way for Scotland to decide our constitutional future is in a referendum. That’s how we should do it.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So you’re saying if you get a majority of MPs, then you’ll start negotiations to get a referendum? It’s a high risk strategy that, because if you don’t get that majority of MPs, you’ve killed the call for independence again, perhaps for another ten years?

John Swinney: The people of Scotland have expressed their view, that there should be a referendum on independence. They did that in 2021. And up until now, the Westminster government has essentially blocked the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland. Now we’ve got an opportunity at this election to get past that, to demonstrate that we in Scotland are not prepared to accept the blockage of the question of independence by the UK government and to progress on that journey. That’s what this election gives us the opportunity to do and that’s what the SNP manifesto said.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: There are a lot of Labour supporters who are also pro-independence now. Some of them believe that the best way to change the Labour Party’s position is from within. What do you say to them?

John Swinney: I don’t think history is a great encouragement of all of that, to be honest. I think those individuals should really look at what the Labour Party is about, because the Labour Party is setting out an agenda just now, which is a continuation of the agenda of the Conservatives on austerity, on Brexit. And I think people should vote for what they believe to be important and necessary for our country at this moment, and I think we need to have a route out of austerity, a route out of Brexit and a route to a better future. And that comes from making sure that decisions can be made in Scotland, for Scotland through independence.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You recognise that people will also judge you on your record in government, because you’ve been the party of government here for 17 years. Isn’t the problem that you cannot look people in the eyes and say, we have transformed your lives? There are things you’ve done: prescription fees, tuition fees, sure. But poverty, life expectancy, these are still terrible in parts of Scotland. You’ve not changed people’s lives.

John Swinney: I think we have transformed people’s lives. Let’s take the life of a child, for example, that’s born in Scotland. So when a child’s born in Scotland, their family gets the support of the state through the provision of some of the essential supports to every child that’s born in our country. When that child gets to two and in some cases, in all cases, three, they get access to double the early learning and childcare offer there was when this government came to office. That is saving families £5,500 a year.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But look at outcomes. I’m not denying you’ve got a child poverty offer now as well but the outcomes are still, that in parts of Glasgow, if you’re a working class man, you’ll die in your sixties.

John Swinney: Let’s look at the outcomes in relation to child poverty. So on child poverty, Scotland’s child poverty rate is significantly lower than the rest of the United Kingdom. 24 per cent in Scotland. It’s still far too high. You know, my passion for eradicating child poverty is still too high, but in England it’s over 30 per cent .

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You’ve fallen in the PISA educational rankings as well?

John Swinney: If you look at other assessments of education, you can see, for example, at National 5, we’ve got the highest level of passes in the National 5 that the 2023 diet. And then when you look at the poverty related attainment gap in primary education, we’re seeing a significant narrowing of the poverty related attainment gap, which is our objective to secure, so that we give young people the best start and the best prospects of an opportunity in Scotland. But all this is happening against the backdrop of 14 years of austerity. And we can’t avoid austerity. We’ve taken some hard decisions to buck the trend of austerity by increasing taxes on higher earners and I accept that’s a different and distinctive position, but we’re doing that to invest in our public services.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: We’re pushed for time. So I’m going to push this onto  oil and gas and climate change. You’ve done a deal, haven’t you? Over oil and gas licences to save the seats of some of your people in oil and gas areas?

John Swinney: The journey to net zero is an inescapable reality, a necessity in our society. We’ve got to make the transition to net zero, and we’ve got to do that to address the climate emergency.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But you’re not opposing all new oil and gas licences are you. Kate Forbes has made that clear.

John Swinney: I’m saying there’s going to have to be a climate compatibility assessment of any oil and gas licence.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: No-one knows what that means is the trouble. Most people will say how can any new drilling be compatible with net zero?

John Swinney: What we’ve got to do is we’ve got to consider each individual application on a case by case basis to determine, can that be consistent with our journey to net zero.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How could it be? How could new oil and gas ever be consistent with…

John Swinney: Because there’ll be questions about energy security and where there’s oil, because we’re going to need oil for some years to come as part of the energy mix. It has to be compatible with our journey to net zero but there will be questions about whether we should be importing oil from other sources. So there’s a complex range of questions that have to be considered as we make a judgement about what is the right stance to take.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: My point being that you call this the most left-wing manifesto in British politics right now, but you’ve moved the SNP to the right, just as Labour has moved to the right on this, on this matter.

John Swinney: Let’s take the question of austerity. We are the only party offering an alternative to the austerity, the conspiracy of silence, of the Labour and Conservative parties on austerity. We have a very different position in that respect, challenging the UK parties in that respect. That’s why our manifesto is the most left of centre manifesto of all the main political parties. And if you take on some of the other issues about employment rights and the approach that we want to take, these reinforce that credibility.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You did not expect to be here personally. You’re here because of the various scandals that have plagued the SNP in recent years. How much are you drawing on Nicola Sturgeon’s advice, for example, because she’s invisible in the campaign, but she’s still popular out there?

John Swinney: I talk to my predecessors. I talk to my colleagues as I formulate what’s the best way forward for the Scottish National Party.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You are in touch?

John Swinney: Of course I am. I’m the person that’s here to lead the SNP through this election campaign and to take us right through past the 2026 elections, which I intend to win for Scotland. And what’s important about my leadership is that my leadership is founded on the important principle that I must be constantly seeking the trust of the people of Scotland, constantly building a relationship of trust with the public. That’s underpinned my approach to my politics in the past and it will underpin my approach to politics in the future.