Prison officer cuts were ‘too much’, admits former justice secretary David Gauke

Former Conservative justice secretary, David Gauke, is now leading a review of sentencing for the new government, aimed at taking the pressure off our prisons.

We began by asking him about the current crisis at HMP Winchester and what he made of the situation there.

David Gauke: Certainly I think one can look at many of the prisons that we have in in this country, and the report from the independent inspector is very clear that they are not as safe as they need to be, that there are real problems in terms of violence, in terms of drug use and so on. This is a problem that has been there for some time. Part of the solution does have to be, I think, reducing some of the pressures in terms of population. And if you can do that, I think it then becomes easier to gain control of those prisons in the way that we need them to be.

Jackie Long: Because over the periods of of your party’s government, that idea of control. We see it again, again in prisons. It’s been lost in many places.

David Gauke: What we did see, if we want to look back over that record, is that I think everyone has to accept the number of prison officers were cut back by too much.

Jackie Long: A mistake?

David Gauke: Yeah, that was a mistake that got reversed. There were also some problems that didn’t stem necessarily from policy, but also, for example, from the widespread use of spice. So synthetic drugs became much more prevalent during the 2010s than had previously been the case.

Jackie Long: And that then created this terrible escalation in violence which continues. And that hasn’t been tackled, has it?

David Gauke: Violence is still too high within our prison system. I absolutely accept that.

Jackie Long: But do you accept that more wasn’t done to tackle it during the period of the last 14 years? You were justice secretary for about a year and a half.

David Gauke: Yeah. No, I accept that where we are with the prison system and certainly, you know, I remember when taking responsibility for this in 2018, we had very significant problems with violence, with self-harm, with a lack of control within our prisons. I think we made some progress. Is our prison system working as it should do? No, there are multiple problems with it. But as far as I’m concerned, where my role is now is trying to ensure that we get that demand reduced, and I think that gives the opportunity to improve the quality.

Jackie Long: And that’s clearly, as you say, where the sentencing review comes in. Now, generally when governments announced a review, announce a review into anything, they say everything’s on the table. But the truth is here, this review has to move to one broad conclusion, and that is that fewer people ought to be sent to prison and prisoners, many of them should spend less time there.

David Gauke: I accept that the challenge that we face at the moment and indeed face in the years ahead is that we are at capacity. The prison population is projected to grow by something like 4,500 a year. There simply isn’t the possibility of building our way out of that crisis. So we are all going to have to look at ways in which people who would otherwise be in prison are outside of prison.

Jackie Long: That is a difficult sell. You know that from your time in office.

David Gauke: I think we’re going to have to be very open and honest with the British public as to what is going to be necessary.

Jackie Long: I mean, how is that likely to go down? You’ll know, from watching it, I’m sure you’re glad to be watching it from the sidelines, what the reaction was with this early release scheme, you know, prisoners coming out, popping champagne corks, getting into BMWs.

David Gauke: What no-one wants to see is a reactive response, dealing with short-term pressures. What we want to have is a system that is much more strategic. We certainly need to look again at short sentences. I think there is a case – when I was justice secretary, I made this case – that very often a short sentence simply disrupts people’s lives. It doesn’t act as a deterrent.

Jackie Long: With respect, looking at the shorter sentences is perhaps the easy bit. Most of the enormous rise in the prison population has been driven by sentence inflation at the more serious end.

David Gauke: You are absolutely right. What has driven the rise in the prison population has been longer sentences for serious offences. That is clearly more difficult to address. The panel and I will look at the evidence and we will come forward with recommendations in due course.