Smyth scandal points to ‘complete systemic failure in the Church’, says Bishop of Gloucester

We were joined by the Bishop of Gloucester, Rachel Treweek, and asked if the five bishops referred to in the report should resign – following the Archbishop of Canterbury stepping down.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Don’t all of these five bishops just need to go? You haven’t got a hope of getting away from this scandal unless they do.

Rachel Treweek: So absolutely, we need to be held accountable. I do want to set the very beginning that the focus must remain on the victims and survivors. And I do want to start off by saying this report is a sickening report. And absolutely, it’s important that we acknowledge the awful pain – horrific abuse – that these victims and survivors have endured and continue to endure because this is very retraumatising. So I do want to say that at the beginning. Of course, people need to be held accountable and I’m sure that that work is being carried out now. I think it’s really important from what we heard just then, that people don’t just blame other people. We all need to say…

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It’s quite vague to say they need to be held accountable. Shouldn’t those five bishops, who all failed to do enough, resign?

Rachel Treweek: I think anyone who has failed to do what they should have done needs to be held accountable. If resignation is part of that, that’s what needs to happen. I also want to say…

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But why won’t you say it, that they should?

Rachel Treweek: Because I don’t know all the details.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: We know that they’re in the report as people who didn’t do enough.

Rachel Treweek: I also want to say that if we think that resignations will actually solve everything, that isn’t the case. I also want to say that the light must be shone on those who in the 70s, 80s and 90s actually were involved in cover up. I mean, it’s horrific reading.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And it’s not just the church.

Rachel Treweek: No, and if you look at the clergy at that time in the report who said they were acting in the name of the gospel, that’s not the Jesus Christ I know. They must be held accountable too – actually who, where, now, are those people who actually did that cover up – and said it was in the name of the church and protecting people. That is horrendous and must be held accountable.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But that’s why I’m saying that. Being held accountable is still a pretty vague way to put it. Isn’t the truth now that you just need a clear out, you know, your institution is collapsing. Unless you start again and you get rid of all of these people – because no one’s going to have any faith in you.

Rachel Treweek: So what I want to say is that what this is revealing is a complete systemic failure in the church, the culture that we have.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You need to start again don’t you?

Rachel Treweek: I don’t know that necessarily starting again… a number of things have changed in our safeguarding culture in recent years.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yeah but you have the Archbishop of York, for example, saying, well, some people should probably go, but not the bishops, funnily enough, because he’s second in command. Now, why shouldn’t he go?

Rachel Treweek: I absolutely agree that bishops – we need to be held accountable. If that means that people need to resign, so be it. But I also want to say that what we need to say is what’s our end vision? And our end vision is to change a systemic failure in the church and the culture. If you look at the culture that is revealed in the Makin report, particularly going back the 70s, 80s and 90s, that – if I may say so – at that time. A public schoolboy culture at the time. The attitude towards women and homosexuality – that needs to change.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: It’s striking that the two bishops who have spoken up in the last two days are women. And I wonder whether you think the new Archbishop of Canterbury must be a woman.

Rachel Treweek: I don’t think the new Archbishop of Canterbury must be a woman. I’d like to believe that would be a real possibility. But I think also, we have to acknowledge that – is the church ready for that? Is the Anglican Communion ready for that?

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think it would survive?

Rachel Treweek: The church?

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes

Rachel Treweek: I think that the church has many pressures, and throughout the centuries there have always been things that have divided the church. I do believe we need the right archbishop. I think Justin Welby has done many very good things. I think it is right that he’s resigned over this. He ironically has brought in many of the changes in our safeguarding culture, but that’s not to defend what went on in past years.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, it’s also interesting that bishops – like you have just done – are saying he is right to have resigned. I mean, did you tell him to resign?

Rachel Treweek: So I think that a number of us felt it was the right thing for him to do while acknowledging that he has taken the institutional hit.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Did you tell him before he resigned that he should resign?

Rachel Treweek: I don’t think any of us were telling him what to do.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Why not?

Rachel Treweek: His advisers at Lambeth… well, I think that also highlights the way…

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: That’s a big institutional failure, isn’t it?

Rachel Treweek: I think that silence isn’t always a sign of things not happening. I think that in the right time and probably a bit sooner, Archbishop Justin actually resigned and he’s taken a hit for the church, but that doesn’t mean – job done.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But he said twice that he had spoken to colleagues. And as a result of that, he decided not to resign, which suggests they were saying, ‘no, don’t resign’. So were any of you saying ‘you’ve got to go?’

Rachel Treweek: So I think a lot of us were saying, through the right channels, ‘yes, this is the time that the archbishop needs to step back’. But recognising that for all the many, many great things he has done, he has taken the institutional hit for this because we have to put the victims and survivors at the centre of this and we cannot keep saying we’re going to just keep learning. We have got to actually make some significant changes. We’ve got to look at the independence in our safeguarding structures and processes. Those things need to be addressed. And ironically, it was actually the two archbishops who commissioned the report by Professor Alexis Jay on looking at our independence. We have not moved swiftly enough. And that reveals things in our church about the way we do our governance. Those things have got to change and we are committed to doing that.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Can I just finally just ask you, do you agree with your colleague, the Bishop of Newcastle, that the language used in a letter, by the Archbishop of York with the Archbishop of Canterbury, was coercive?

Rachel Treweek: So that is for the Bishop of Newcastle to say how she perceived that letter to be.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You won’t agree with that.

Rachel Treweek: I am not going to say – I want to say that we need to ensure that we don’t have a muscular Christianity in our church. But actually that is for Bishop Helen-Ann to say how she perceived it to be.