‘The evidence doesn’t show that there’s a two-tier system,’ says National Black Police Association

We speak to Andrew George, president of the National Black Police Association.

Andrew George: Our experience is – the data backs up what we would say as well – that people from minority ethnic backgrounds end up being treated slightly differently to others, the majority communities. We end up more disproportionately targeted by stop and search, use of force, deaths in custody. But even in the internal environment, police officers are more likely to face misconduct. You’re less likely to get recruited into policing and less likely to get promoted. So all in all, generally, it’s people from ethnic minority backgrounds that definitely are on the the wrong side of police use of powers.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: This week we’ve seen this newer accusation levelled at the police by the right, that they are more lenient towards ethnic minority groups, than they are towards white people. And that has been angrily denied by the police. But the trouble is, the police have also denied that they are institutionally racist. So where does that leave you when you’re trying to work out what the truth is?

Andrew George: Unless this debate, this failure to admit that institutional racism is still present within the police service, has allowed misinformation to come forward. We’re an evidence-based organisation. All we need to do is look at the stats, look at the data, and that will ensure that we understand what the issues actually are. Chief officers generally come from white backgrounds. They have certain perceptions, certain perspectives that don’t really take in the views of those from minority ethnic backgrounds. So we would always say, just admit what the experiences of people from minority ethnic backgrounds have been, so that we can finally move forward.

The evidence doesn’t show that there’s a two-tier system. I was reviewing some of the data from back in the 2011 riots, and I think there were over 3,000 arrests in the first few days of those riots. So it is only just over 500 now in the disorder that we’ve seen recently. So everybody needs to make sure that the information that they are getting is factual, that it’s been checked and that it can be verified.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes, the facts are there if you go looking for them. But there’s a danger that this new allegation from the right sort of gains traction, isn’t there, and the people start to think that that’s a real thing. What do you think should be done to tackle that misinformation?

Andrew George: Yes, the misinformation. I heard others on speaking about it just before I come on. That misinformation needs to be tackled. We have been here before. Whenever newspapers are brought out, whenever the radio and media were brought forward, information that’s alive on the online social media space needs to be tackled. It needs to be regulated in the same way that other news organisations and where people get their information from.

We’ve heard people chat about the digital town square. You’re not allowed to do certain things that happen on the online space, in the physical space, in the actual town square. So we just need to make sure that all of the legislation, all of our policing tactics are equipped, are future-focussed, and look at all of these and inputs and developments in technology.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: There have been some senior police leaders, from the national association, who have conceded that institutional racism is a problem. The most senior police officer, Sir Mark Rowley from the Met, hasn’t. Do you think it would actually still make a difference if he did say yes, it’s been a problem or is a problem there. [00:03:36][20.1]

Andrew George: No, completely. I’ve spoken to Sir Mark on a number of occasions. I have said that that admission of institutional racism would be well received. That has been borne out in Sarah Crew’s brave admission, in Avon and Somerset. What that does is legitimise the experiences of those from ethnic minority backgrounds. It shows that the commissioner takes their view seriously, looks at the data and wants to move forward. So for me, that admission is crucial to making sure that ethnic minority communities understand and believe in the rhetoric coming from police leaders that they want to reform and they want to move forward.