‘There are war crimes on all sides’, says Labour MP

We are joined by Labour MP Emily Thornberry, who is chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: As we speak tonight, Israel has hit a school, a hospital, a food distribution centre. It’s fired on UN troops in Lebanon and is said to be considering starving northern Gaza as a way of hitting Hamas. Do you think there should be any red lines for Britain’s political support of Israel?

Emily Thornberry: It’s very difficult to process the films that you’ve just been showing, which have such suffering from so many different angles, so many different facets. It’s absolutely appalling to see it. I mean, our principle is that Israel has a right to defend itself. But we’ve always said that it has to do that within the confines of international law and it has to be proportionate. All civilian life is equal and to see the suffering that is happening at the moment is, I mean, there is universal condemnation of it.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But it’s that policy, isn’t it, of both supporting its right to self-defence, but then warning it or calling for ceasefire and warning it about humanitarian law that isn’t working. So, do you think…there’s a letter tonight, you’ve probably seen it being circulated by five MPs, including your former colleague Jeremy Corbyn, asking the government precisely this question. Is there anything Israel can do that would mean Britain’s political and diplomatic support for Israel should be withdrawn?

Emily Thornberry: The question I actually think should be asked is, how do we get this to stop? What we need to do is work collectively to get this to stop. And that is what is necessary. I’m not really interested in gestures. What I’m interested in is making sure that the continued invasion of Lebanon and the attacks in Lebanon stop – that there is a ceasefire in Gaza, that there is not the cutting off of the top third of Gaza, which looks like the general’s plan is – that you cut off the top third of Gaza. You tell everybody they have to move and if they don’t move, then they are presumed to be combatants and can either be starved or killed.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you agree that that would be a war crime if northern Gaza is starved?

Emily Thornberry: It is a war crime to forcibly remove a population from one part of a country to another. It is a war crime to deliberately starve people, of course. And any war crimes that are being committed, we will need to make sure go before the courts and the courts can decide who has committed war crimes. There are war crimes on all sides, it seems to me, in there during this conflict. There are war crimes that have been committed by Hamas, by Iran – on all sides. The accusations fly in all directions, but we need it to stop. And that is the most important thing. And across the world, is there a country that is in favour of this continuing? We have to make sure this stops.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But that’s the point, isn’t it, that when you say you’re interested in trying to stop it, it appears to be the case that Britain has no purchase on that at all. And the only thing that it could do – get dismissed as you have just done now – is gesture politics.

Emily Thornberry: No

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: These are the only levers Britain has, in truth, aren’t they?

Emily Thornberry: I think that what we need to do is we need to work together as a group internationally. I think that the bottom 18 miles of Lebanon has a United Nations force that is, at the moment, it would seem, on the face of things, being attacked. The European Union has been right to condemn that. There’s more than I think 600 Spanish, 600 French, 1,000 Italians, from 50 different countries – Unifil collectives. I think there might be one from Britain. But there is an international force there and it must not be removed because if it is removed, then it is simply a matter of moving the international eyes and ears away from that area and giving the Israelis free rein.