‘There needs to be a confrontation of Iran’ – US senator Lindsey Graham

Two senior US senators from both sides of the political divide, Lindsey Graham and Richard Blumenthal, are in the Middle East trying to promote a diplomatic solution to the crisis.

We started by asking Democrat Senator Richard Blumenthal whether the US should be putting pressure on Israel to stop its attacks on Gaza and Lebanon.

Richard Blumenthal: Israel has a right to defend itself and it has to make decisions tactically. We’ve urged that civilian casualties be reduced, that more humanitarian aid be provided in meetings before this one, repeatedly. And Senator Graham and I are bringing the hope that we can help lead toward normalising relations that will, in a longer sense, achieve peace and stability for the region.

Lindsey Graham: What did we do after Pearl Harbor? We went to all-out victory. There is no military solution here. We bombed Japan to smithereens. We destroyed Berlin. That’s not an option here.

Matt Frei: But not holding them back has meant 40,000 dead Gazans, most of them civilians.

Lindsey Graham: That’s because Hamas wants them that way. They want it that way. I don’t blame Israel…

Matt Frei: Then why do them the favour?

Lindsey Graham: Hamas will not be standing. They will never govern Gaza again. If you get nothing else out of this interview, Hamas will never govern Gaza again. [Hamas chief Yahya] Sinwar is going to meet his fate. If you’re successful to build on the Abraham Accords and reconcile the Arab world with the Israelis, then you’ve truly created a sustainable solution for this problem.

Matt Frei: Because if there is failure, then there may not be Hamas anymore, but there’ll be another organisation with similar policies that will be called something different but want the same thing.

Lindsey Graham: I couldn’t agree with you more. Gazan children who’ve seen their parents killed, seen their neighbours killed, they will join a cause, a new cause with a new name. Unless somebody comes in and takes over their lives, provides them an education system and a future that’s more hopeful.

Matt Frei: But their bitterness is created by American bombs dropped on them inside Gaza, in part, isn’t it?

Lindsey Graham: I think their bitterness should be toward Hamas. They have been radicalised. They’re the most radicalised population on the planet. From the time you’re born in Gaza, until the time you die, you’re taught to hate the Jews.

Richard Blumenthal: The weapons we are providing enables Israel to defend itself against terrorist organisations, not Palestinians, not Lebanese…

Matt Frei: But they’re also killing lots of innocent civilians, haven’t they?

Richard Blumenthal: …But terrorist organisations that want to annihilate it.

Matt Frei: If Israel takes on Iran in such a way that this escalates and becomes a war between Israel and Iran, the United States would be obliged to enter on Israel’s side, wouldn’t it?

Richard Blumenthal: Iran has declared that it wants to destroy the United States, as well as annihilate Israel. So Israel’s war is not only against the Houthis, Hamas, Hezbollah, but against Iran.

Matt Frei: So that’s the yes, that you would enter on the side of Israel?

Richard Blumenthal: I’m not predicting what will happen. Our effort here is actually to help reduce or avoid escalation and the widening of this war.

Lindsey Graham: There needs to be a confrontation of Iran. We’ve put it off way too long. We need to call the question on Iran. They’re the source of most of the evil in the region.

Matt Frei: Regime change?

Lindsey Graham: I am 1,000 per cent for regime change, but you don’t have to do it by force.

Matt Frei: How did that work out last time America tried it, in Iraq?

Lindsey Graham: I think we have nothing to lose. How did it work out when we got rid of Hitler? Better. He’s Hitler. So what I would say, that the way the regime falls is not through an invasion, it’s by isolation. That if you can reconstruct Lebanon and you can get the Arabs and Israelis working together, then Iran truly becomes isolated. That’s the way the regime eventually meets its fate, is to be isolated by other players in the region.

Matt Frei: What have you been telling the prime minister of Israel and what’s he been telling you about the next chess move in this very dangerous game between Iran and Israel?

Lindsey Graham: So what happens in Gaza once the fighting is over? What happens in Lebanon? What’s the day after look like? For a year and a half, I’ve been coming to the region trying to sell the idea of normalisation between Saudi Arabia and Israel. What would that look like? Saudi Arabia would recognise the state of Israel, create diplomatic ties, thus ending the Arab-Israeli conflict. The biggest change in my lifetime, your lifetime, in the Middle East.

Richard Blumenthal: I think, I hope, that the government, Prime Minister Netanyahu, will seize that moment and we urge to him the imperative of leading toward normalising relations and seeking peace that will also reduce civilian casualties, bring home the hostages and enable more humanitarian aid.

Lindsey Graham: Now’s the time, if you’re ever going to do it, to start a dialogue with Saudi Arabia about the day after.

Matt Frei: But the Saudis have also been very clear that what they want in return, that there needs to be a viable, sovereign, independent Palestinian state, which the Israelis recognise.

Lindsey Graham: They want two things. For them to recognise the state of Israel, they want a defence agreement with the United States. Saudi Arabia and the United States would have a mutual defence agreement like we have with Japan and Australia. In other words, the United States would go to war for Saudi Arabia. That requires 67 votes in the US Senate. Senator Blumenthal is a Democrat trying to get the votes. I told [Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman] a year and a half ago, that will be a heavy lift, but I will try.

Matt Frei: But the Israelis also have to want to recognise an independent Palestinian state. They are not going to do that.

Lindsey Graham: An independent sovereign nation called Palestine with security guarantees for Israel to make sure there’s no future October 7th. It will be more like an emirate than it will be a democracy. [Bin Salman] and [United Arab Emirates President Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan] at the UAE will come in and rebuild Gaza. They will reform the [Palestinian Authority]. They will create an enclave in Palestine that can live in peace and harmony with Israel, that will stop teaching their children to kill the Jews, a de-radicalised, a demilitarised…

Matt Frei: Is that actually true, how do they teach it?

Lindsey Graham: Yes, literally. So bottom line, a de-radicalised, demilitarised Palestinian enclave is what Israel wants. And here’s the rub. After 7 October, declaring a Palestinian state after the attack would be seen as rewarding terrorism. That’s the universal view of the Jewish people. The two-state solution, as we know it, died on 7 October.

Matt Frei: You think it’s dead?

Lindsey Graham: I think as it’s been envisioned in the past, it is. And I think that was the goal of the Iranians. If you don’t have a day-after plan like I described, Hamas will come back. If you don’t have a day-after plan, like I described, Hezbollah will regenerate and you’ll have 50 years of Israel half in and half out. There will be no normalisation. Nobody is going to come to this region to do business because it’s going to be on fire. So if you want to beat Iran, if you want to make sure 7 October is revenge, in the proper way, do peace.

Richard Blumenthal: We have stated emphatically and repeatedly that there needs to be a path toward peace, and diplomatic successes need to match the military successes.

Matt Frei: If Trump becomes elected as president, where does your project go?

Lindsey Graham: I think, I think it dies. If we don’t do the deal on Biden’s watch, there will be no normalisation between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Matt Frei: Because?

Lindsey Graham: I can’t get 67 votes.

Matt Frei: President Biden speaking in an impromptu appearance at the press room at the White House a couple of days ago, hinted at the fact that he thinks Prime Minister Netanyahu is trying to influence the American elections, which are due in less than a month. Do you think that he’s right?

Richard Blumenthal: There was no indication in our conversation yesterday that Prime Minister Netanyahu is trying to influence elections. But, of course, we’re not inside his head.