UK-Germany defence agreement – how significant really is it?

The UK and Germany have signed what the government described as a ‘milestone’ joint defence partnership.

Under the Trinity House Agreement, German defence manufacturers will invest in new projects in Britain, and joint exercises involving German and British forces will be stepped up. The two countries will also work together to develop new long-range weapons and sophisticated drone systems.

We spoke to the Defence Secretary, John Healey, and asked him about the significance of this agreement.

John Healey: Major moment really for this is as a new government – but particularly for our two nations. It’s the point at which we, as the two biggest defence spenders in Europe, are saying we’re going to bring our militaries closer together, our industries closer together, and we’re going to do that because we need to respond more rapidly to the rising threats that we face. Our two armies on the eastern flank of Nato’s – on the Russian border – will train, exercise and innovate more together. But it’s also about developing the new weapons for the future that mean that we can make sure our troops are always one step ahead of adversaries.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But the truth is, these weapons really are a deterrent, though, isn’t it? You won’t let Ukraine use them against Russia right now. And you and Germany are pretty much on the same page.

John Healey: Deterrence only works if you’ve got the plausible power to be able to fight if necessary. In terms of Ukraine, what’s required in Ukraine is not just the provision of extra weapons and ammunition that they need which is, as a new government, what we’ve done over these last four months, we’ve stepped up the supply of those and sped up the delivery of what’s been promised.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But you won’t let them use what they want to use. That’s the point.

John Healey: But we’ve been also stepping up and helping them produce for themselves in Ukraine.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So the future for them is technology transfer from Britain and other Nato countries to enable them to build their own long-range weapons?

John Healey: It is both provision of what they need and it’s production for themselves.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Did you talk about the Middle East? Because, again, you’re both under pressure, you and Germany, as governments, to stop transfers of weapons to Israel. And you’re both refusing to formally ban weapons exports, although in practice, Germany has effectively brought it to a halt. Why don’t you do the same?

John Healey: We’ve taken decisions and actions on the suspension of export licences for certain components and weapons to Israel that could be used in Gaza.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But it’s tokenistic, in truth, isn’t it?

John Healey: No, it’s a legal process. We discussed the Middle East as part of the Nato defence ministers last week – and the overwhelming consensus there is that we have together to press for a ceasefire. We must get the hostages out, flood the area with aid. And in Lebanon, we have to have a cease in the fighting to give the path to peace and a separation plan under the United Nations a chance of success.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Have you seen the human rights assessments on Israel’s behaviour and do you think they should be published, which is what Labour called for in opposition?

John Healey: We’ve given the full statement to parliament. David Lammy did that as foreign secretary when the decision was taken. That’s the action taken, the decision that’s in place. The important thing now is really what we…

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I think that’s a no, isn’t it?

John Healey: The most important thing now is how do we try and reinforce the work and success to get an end to the fighting.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You describe this as a strategic deal, but when you look at what’s going on with BRICS right now, you’re seeing India, China, Iran standing next to Vladimir Putin. That’s a real symbol of how the world is changing, isn’t it?

John Healey: At the same time, you’ve got the King, you’ve got Keir Starmer as part of 56 nations gathering together in the Commonwealth.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And they can’t even get the Canadian foreign minister to go.

John Healey: For me, the biggest sign of how the world is changing, and has changed since Putin invaded Ukraine two years ago, is that Nato is now bigger. Finland and Sweden have joined. It’s bigger, it’s stronger, it’s more unified, as we demonstrated again last week in Brussels. And to that extent, it is having exactly the opposite effect that Putin was hoping for when he went in with his full-scale illegal invasion of Ukraine.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Now, let me ask you about Donald Trump. It’s now clear that the Labour Party supports Kamala Harris. I mean, everyone’s always known that. And now it’s kind of out there and open, isn’t it?

John Healey: You’ve got Labour supporters as volunteers out there as part of the campaign.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Organised by the Labour Party.

John Healey: No they’ve, they’re out there as volunteers, they’re in their own time, they’re at their own expense. It’s been done in every election in my adult lifetime – it’s commonplace. It’s entirely different from Labour leading a UK government. My job and Keir Starmer’s job is to reinforce the special relationship, the deep relationship the UK has with the US. We’ll work with whatever president the American people choose to elect. And it’s one of the reasons why Keir Starmer has made a special effort to establish relations with Trump. They had dinner together last month.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But they’re now calling you the far-left Labour Party. I mean, that’s not a good thing, is it?

John Healey: We’re in the middle of an election campaign. There’s always controversy in an election campaign.