Ukraine shouldn’t be defending itself with ‘one hand tied behind its back’, says UK Defence Committee chair

The Labour MP Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi chairs the Defence Committee, he joined us from Westminster.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think MPs should have got more of a say in whether Storm Shadow should be used by Ukraine, given it now clearly crosses the red line drawn by Russia on its use of nuclear weapons?

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi: Krishnan, I think we would all acknowledge that we live in an increasingly volatile and dangerous world, and that is an issue that has become more and more to the fore, whether it’s in terms of Russia’s illegal invasion within our continent. We’ve got now the increased escalation of deployment of North Korean troops on European soil. We’ve got increased conflict, whether it’s in the Middle East, across the Sahel or other parts of Africa and Asia. And of course, we’ve got the issues and the tensions around the Indo-Pacific. So within that wider context, if we are to provide support to Ukraine, as I have said on the floor of the House since last month, many of us have been saying, that we should be obviously giving strong, solid support to Ukraine, our friends and allies, but at the same time, they should not be out there defending themselves with one hand tied behind their backs.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yeah, but this is a very specific thing.

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi: It’s important to, not just, give them the equipment…

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, Storm Shadow is seen by Russia as specifically breaking its new nuclear doctrine, which is the assistance of a non-nuclear power by a nuclear power. And they say they will then view that as a joint attack, which potentially makes British targets the focus of Russian interests. Now, the British government seems to be just operating on the basis that that’s a bluff – it won’t happen. And MPs haven’t really had an opportunity to discuss that.

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi: Look, Krishnan, we’ve had a lot of unuseful rhetoric and diatribe from Russia before, even when we provided support to Ukraine initially. We had an increase in the soundbites coming out from Putin. We’ve had that constantly, even when we provided them with more military equipment or with aid.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So you just don’t believe it?

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi: In military equipment or with aid. So I think over the last three years, if that’s something that we have seen constantly, that’s what we are going to be getting from Putin. What we need to do is to supply the military and other aid to Ukraine. And we must advise them that, look, this equipment obviously has to be used within the confines of international humanitarian law.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Now, the opposition and right-wing press, it should be said, are attacking the government over these cuts. Now they come with the backing of the service chiefs. But it’s not a good look, is it? When you might be entering a new phase of a war with Russia, when Britain’s getting rid of half £1 billion worth of weaponry?

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi: Look, as I said on the floor of the House when I was questioning the secretary of state after he’d made his statement that – overall – I welcome these changes, these reforms, because many of these reforms to the operations of MOD – the Ministry of Defence – they are long overdue. It is important that we get rid of older platforms and transition to newer equipment. But at the same time, what we must ensure is that our people are supported so that they are re-skilled and retrained to use that new equipment. And at the same time, what I asked him is that – is some of this equipment, is that going to be sold to either allies or is that going to be given to Ukraine? We need that investment in newer technology, those newer pieces of equipment, rather than relying on things which, as your reporter mentioned earlier, have sometimes not been out for years. So being docked on the shores of the UK is not as much use to us as if we are investing in new bits of kit. So I think it’s important that’s what we do.