Matt Frei: Does it matter to you as a Palestinian whether this was Donald Trump applying pressure to the Israelis or Joe Biden finally being listened to?
Husam Zomlot: No, it doesn’t. What matters is the carnage to stop – 15 months of utter loss, grief, sheer human suffering and finally, we have good news. We can breathe now, a sigh of relief and look ahead.
Matt Frei: You’re confident that this will stick?
Husam Zomlot: I’m very cautious, like all of us. Those who know Netanyahu and the Israeli composition, those who know the dynamics in Israel, will be extremely cautious. But we have got to be hopeful and press ahead. We have got to end this mass murder and learn the lessons of the last 15 months.
Matt Frei: We’ll get to those lessons in a minute. But Donald Trump said a few days ago that unless those hostages were released and a deal was done, ‘all hell’ would be unleashed. And we always thought at the time he was talking about Hamas, but actually he was probably talking about the Israelis. At the same time. It has also taken Hamas six months to sign up to this deal. Both sides have delayed, right?
Husam Zomlot: You heard President Biden clearly saying this was presented in May, and it was, and it was adopted by the Security Council, and it was. And it is very well documented that it was Netanyahu who rejected it. So why are we discussing this?
Matt Frei: But the tragedy is that in the interim, so many more people had to die.
Husam Zomlot: That’s not only a tragedy. That is something that we need to absolutely make sure justice is served and it never, ever happens again. So, yes, it’s such a tragedy that we should have reached this long, long ago, actually by November 2023. And the world needs to learn the lesson of its own failure. This is the first time that the international community fails to stop, let alone prevent, a genocide in real time. And I believe the impact on our international order is going to be severe. So this is a moment when we hold ourselves together and rebuild all that has been destroyed. And that is not just Gaza. It’s also the relevance of buildings in New York and our global system.
Matt Frei: The Israelis, of course, would reject the charge of genocide, and they would say that this latest horrific round of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would not have happened if it hadn’t been for Hamas’ attack on 7 October.
Husam Zomlot: The ICJ [International Court of Justice] has has said that the crime of genocide is plausible already in January last year. But I assure you once this stops, once you and I have the ability to go to Gaza and see the criminal genocidal aggression on our people in Gaza, you and I will dread that moment.
Matt Frei: We have all been asking to go back there to report from there. We have been denied access…
Husam Zomlot: Who prevented you, Matt?
Matt Frei: The Israelis prevented us from getting there.
Husam Zomlot: The Israelis prevented you.
Matt Frei: And we know that, and we’ve been talking to them about that. What happens now? Let’s say the ceasefire sticks. What happens after the end of the second phase? How do you see the future of Gaza?
Husam Zomlot: Number one, we need to make sure that this ceasefire holds. Netanyahu is manoeuvring all the time, changing his goal post and calculations and coalitions. Number two, we need to make sure it’s permanent, that Israel leaves all of Gaza, that the people of Gaza are able to go back to their homes without any hindrance, that unprecedented international humanitarian assistance is delivered. Our babies are dying because of freezing and hunger and what have you. This is unmatched.
Matt Frei: Who runs Gaza?
Husam Zomlot: It is the state of Palestine. What do you mean? Nobody should ask that question.
Matt Frei: Why?
Husam Zomlot: Never again. Because the Palestinian people have the State of Palestine that represents all of them, that has a seat in the United Nations, their struggle for 100 years is for that State of Palestine. The State of Palestine has its national institutions.
Matt Frei: But which Palestinians will end up running Gaza?
Husam Zomlot: Which Palestinians? Fatah, Hamas are political factions. I am talking now…
Matt Frei: You fight each other, you have in the past.
Husam Zomlot: Now you’re discussing with me Labour and Conservatives. You’re not discussing with me the UK as a state and a government. We have a government that is recognised by the world. That government, the people in Gaza are demanding, longing for the PLO and the government to come back and take its responsibility. Let me say it now and very clearly, there will be no alternative but the Palestinian national institutions, the PLO and its institutions to take over. We will not leave Gaza in a vacuum. It is our responsibility and we will fulfil it.