‘We want more resignations than just Justin Welby’, says victim of John Smyth

We spoke to one of John Smyth’s victims, Mark Stibbe, a former vicar and now an author.

Cathy Newman: You heard Bishop Rose saying that ‘no amount of resignations will fix this problem’. You called for Justin Welby’s resignation last night. Do you feel that that’s a good job done?

Mark Stibbe: I think it’s part of a good job done, Cathy. I think that he’s done the right thing, and that’s what we as survivors and as victims of John Smyth have been asking for, right from the very beginning when you broke the story in 2017. We asked for the Archbishop of Canterbury, whom we knew knew about the abuses in 2013, and the Bishop of Ely and other senior figures in the Church of England to do the right thing, and Justin Welby has done the right thing. He’s admitted that at a personal and at an institutional level, we have been failed and other people can see that. Everyone can see that, including the prime minister, who said today, that as victims we have been very badly failed. So I applaud Justin Welby for resigning. But what I think the survivor group would like is more resignations because that means more accountability. People taking responsibility for having been silent when they should have spoken.

Cathy Newman: So what did you make of the Bishop of Lincoln’s response, which we just read out just a few minutes ago? Former Bishop of Ely, should he resign? He says he’s sorry.

Mark Stibbe: I think he’s one of the people that Keith Makin, in his forensic research and report, highlighted was very culpable. So obviously it’s up to him and his relationship with God and his conscience. But as far as the survivor group is concerned, we want people to take responsibility for not just their actions, but their inaction. And if he’s one of those people, then he should go. I think one of the things that we learned early on as a survivor group was the importance of what Matthew Syed calls ‘black box thinking’. When planes crash, the boxes are retrieved and the industry learns everything that it needs to from that crash and rolls out the changes necessary. I think the Church of England needs to engage in widespread black box thinking as a result of this chaotic mishandling of the Smyth abuses. And part of that must involve, I think, some resignations, more than just Justin Welby’s. Otherwise, he’s taking the rap for everything, and it could be argued that he’s being scapegoated.

Cathy Newman: So multiple resignations, root and branch reform sounds like what you’re talking about. Should the police be called in to look at whether people were complicit in a cover up?

Mark Stibbe: I think that would be part of what Matthew Syed would call ‘black box thinking’. Yes, if there are senior clergy who have broken the law, then they need to be called to account for that. But I think that at a very sort of fundamental level, we’re asking for two things. We’re asking for resignations and we’re asking for reform. And I would like to see those who have been responsible for silence with us, I would like to see them leave their post in the Church of England, and I would like to see them replaced by people like Bishop [Helen-Ann Hartley], who courageously spoke out yesterday and who clearly has a compassion for victims and a passion and an intentionality for proper safeguarding throughout the whole of the Church of England. We need to see local churches becoming safe spaces for vulnerable people. And for that to happen, not just resignation, but reformation right from the top.

Cathy Newman: Justin Welby said in his statement he wanted to meet the victims. I know that is something that many victims would have liked to have happened a long time ago. If you do go and meet him, you personally, what would you say to him?

Mark Stibbe: I would, first of all, say that I take no personal delight or joy in him losing his job. I’m not that kind of person, and none of the victims delights in that one simple fact that he’s effectively lost his job. But we would also want to challenge him to be a person that makes sure that he uses the rest of his life for the cause of this reformation of the church. So it is a safe house for vulnerable people.