‘We want to be on the right side of the law’ by suspending some Israeli arms exports says Labour MP

We were joined by Labour MP Emily Thornberry, who was formerly shadow foreign secretary.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: This seems to be the clearest indication yet that British government lawyers have assessed that Israel is committing war crimes. That’s incredibly serious.

Emily Thornberry: No. So this is not an arms embargo. This is looking at what it is that we’ve been selling, either arms or components, and what they’ve been used for. And the law is that if it might be used, might be used, for internal repression or international aggression, then the criteria that we’ve used for selling arms around the world, is that you’re not to do it. So, for example, if we were selling parts that were going to be part of the Iron Dome, which is a defensive shield in Israel, then we can continue to do that. But our law has always been pretty clear that we don’t, and we shouldn’t, and we mustn’t, and it’s indeed in contravention of international law if we go and sell arms to a country that’s using it for internal repression or external aggression.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Would you like to see the legal advice published in full?

Emily Thornberry: I think that we’re going to get a summary. But I haven’t seen it yet, and I don’t know how extensive the summary is until I see it.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: A summary can hide many things, can’t it? What’s important, isn’t it, is to establish whether British government lawyers have looked at what Israel’s already done and decided that that’s against the law?

Emily Thornberry: Yeah. The criteria is that it might be used. So, might is a pretty low bar. It isn’t that it has been, it isn’t that it will be, it says it might be. And so and given what’s going on in Gaza and on the West Bank, then I think that it’s right for the government to look at what’s happening and say, given the sorts of things that we’re selling, and I say it’s not a lot, it’s only 1% of Israel’s imports of arms, but nevertheless we want to be on the right side of the law.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And only a proportion of what we are exporting as well. If there is this fear of what Israel is doing with British exports, wouldn’t there be an argument to stop all military exports?

Emily Thornberry: Well, it’s happened in the past. It happens very rarely. I think in 1982, Margaret Thatcher had a complete arms embargo on Israel, given what was going on in Israel at that time. But the government has taken the view that we are just to comply with international law.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think it’s enough?

Emily Thornberry: I think that Israel should be allowed to defend itself, frankly. But it’s the fine line between defending yourself and being involved in internal repression and external aggression.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Now, there’s obviously a keen debate going on in the Labour Party around this as you know. Some of your former colleagues have been suspended from the whip at the moment. At the same time as your former leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has assembled this new sort of coalition, of new MPs grouping, from the MPs who were elected largely on the Israel-Gaza issue. If any of your currently suspended Labour colleagues are being courted by them to go and join them, what would your message be, bearing in mind that they’re all friends of yours?

Emily Thornberry: They’re all friends of mine, and I certainly would expect them and hope them to remain in the Labour Party. The Labour Party is the movement that introduces proper progressive change in this country, and we need to stick together. I’ve always thought that.