World leaders should ‘double down’ on Ukraine support, says PM

Thousands of miles away at the G20 summit in Brazil Sir Keir Starmer said Ukraine must be put in the strongest possible position to win.

But many leaders at that summit are far less supportive of Ukraine, and when Donald Trump is President again in two months time, international backing could be even weaker.

Gary Gibbon: There is a very strong sense at the moment, more than a strong sense, a reality, that the US appetite for funding Ukraine’s war has pretty much gone. It’s over. It’s dried up. The EU’s appetite for stepping in and utterly filling that void, well, that doesn’t exist. Isn’t the truth, we’re entering a new phase and maybe people should start being realistic about that.

Sir Keir Starmer: I don’t think that’s quite right. If you look at the money that’s going in, the capability of the training that is being ramped up. But I’m absolutely clear that here at the G20, I am saying that we should double down on our support for Ukraine, and make sure Ukraine has what it needs for as long as it needs, because this is day 1000, as you say, a thousand days of Russian aggression, a thousand days of sacrifice by Ukraine.

Gary Gibbon: You don’t think Donald Trump’s bluffing?

Sir Keir Starmer: Well, my position is very, very clear. This isn’t just about sovereignty in Ukraine. It’s about all of us. There’s a huge impact on the United Kingdom. This is day 1,000 of aggression.

Gary Gibbon: We can’t do any of that without money. And if Europe is not going to pay and America is not going to pay, we’re in a new dispensation aren’t we.

Sir Keir Starmer: There’s a huge cost if Russia wins through aggression in this war..

Gary Gibbon: But we might be there?

Sir Keir Starmer: ..a huge cost that we will all be paying. And that’s why I’ve said that we cannot allow Putin to win this war, which is why I am doubling down with colleagues here at the G20 and saying, we must do, we must do what is necessary.

Gary Gibbon: President Zelenskyy wasn’t even allowed to come here. The hosts didn’t allow him a ticket.

Sir Keir Starmer: I think I had six meetings with President Zelenskyy..

Gary Gibbon: Not here.

Sir Keir Starmer: ..four months that I’ve been in office, so we’re frequently talking to President Zelenskyy, as are other world leaders, many of whom are here.

Gary Gibbon: Let me ask you something else, because you’re very clear. You don’t want to talk about operational matters to do with the use of long range missiles and whether they are now authorised. I want to ask you a slightly different question. Are you confident you know what, because Russia has been talking about how conventional weapons could be responded to with nuclear weapons, are you sure you know what their threshold is, what the trigger point is for that kind of reaction?

Sir Keir Starmer: Well, you know, I will just say again, I’m not going to comment on operational matters. And the reason for that is anybody who knows about conflict will readily understand Putin is the winner if we do so, and it undermines the Ukrainian effort. But I do think that it’s important that we see the facts as they are. This is day 1000. Russia is the aggressor, in breach of the UN Charter, and we must stand firm.

Gary Gibbon: I asked you a specific question, and you will appreciate, people will be very worried about this, the nuclear word from Russia. Do you know what the threshold is?

Sir Keir Starmer: Well, we must deal with the facts as they are, and ensure that we are clear about who is the aggressor here. And the single simplest way to end this conflict is for Russia to walk away from its aggression. And we need to be really clear..

Gary Gibbon: With Donald Trump in the White House, that’s not really very likely.

Sir Keir Starmer: There’s no equivalence here between Russia and Ukraine. Russia has invaded sovereign territory in Europe, in Europe, and now we’re on day 1000 of that conflict. It is impacting not just Ukraine, but the rest of the world, including the United Kingdom. And if we allow Putin to win this war, we will all pay a very high price.

Gary Gibbon: Can I ask you more broadly about the budget? You talked about the black hole that you had to fix. And people look at the numbers, your spending numbers, and they’re slightly baffled because you have sorted out spending in the terms you described, wanting to sort it out. But for the next two years, spending goes up by just over 3% for the next two years and then we’re way, way back, crashing down to 1.3%. And it’s left a lot of people baffled about what’s going on here. In fact, someone who you’ve invoked a lot over the years, IFS boss, Paul Johnson, the guru of these matters, actually called that budget a sticking plaster. That hurts, doesn’t it?

Sir Keir Starmer: Well, what we did in the budget was fix the fundamentals. We filled the black hole. So there’s a gap in our economy that the last government left – £22 billion. I could have done what the last government did, which was to pretend it wasn’t there, carry on with the fiction. I wasn’t prepared to do that. So we’ve dealt with that. But we’ve also put record investment and where we’ve put it, into our NHS, into our schools so every child can go as far as their talent will take them, and into housing..

Gary Gibbon: What happens after two years?

Sir Keir Starmer: No these are long term, the investments are clearly..

Gary Gibbon: But I can show you the graph, you’ve seen the graph. Spending goes right up and then right down.

Sir Keir Starmer: You’ll understand the investment is capital investment, huge amount of investment. There have been a number of comments about the budget, but not many people are saying you haven’t invested heavily in the future of the country.

Gary Gibbon: He acknowledges that and lots of other people do as well. It’s this baffling spending movement and it makes people think that it’s almost inevitable, even though she denied it the other day, that Rachel Reeves will be back for more. This isn’t it on major tax takes is it.

Sir Keir Starmer: I think if you were to do a poll of those watching this and say, do they think the investment should go into our NHS, into our schools and into our houses, they would agree with that.

Gary Gibbon: That isn’t what I was asking about. I’m asking, is that it? Are you coming back for more?

Sir Keir Starmer: We’ve set out in the budget the terms of the budget. I’m not going to now write budgets for the future, but that was intended to be the budget that fixed the foundations. That was the purpose of it.

Gary Gibbon: And just finally. You’ve been very clear on assisted dying. You do not want to influence that vote.

Sir Keir Starmer: Yes.

Gary Gibbon: We’ll know the way you vote on the day you vote. I want to ask, some people think you are influencing it by not promising government time. You heard in prime minister’s questions last week one MP, but I think he speaks for many others who’d feel more encouraged to vote for this if they thought there was proper time to debate it. And you could do that. You could give government protected time to do it. And because you haven’t done that, they’re suspicious that deep down, you’ve got fingers crossed behind your back and this cause that you’ve always supported, you actually don’t want to triumph next Friday.

Sir Keir Starmer: I do think there’s sufficient time. And I think there’s a very healthy debate going on about assisted suicide and assisted dying. That’s going on every day and many politicians and many others are in that debate. I know that feelings are very strongly held on both sides. This is not party political. That’s why it’s important for the government to be neutral. And it’s important that MPs don’t feel pressurised in relation to their vote, that it is a genuinely free vote.

Gary Gibbon: No fingers crossed behind your back?

Sir Keir Starmer: No, it’s a genuinely free vote.